Need a Toyota Xtra Cab 2LT Lift Pump!

[claybodie]

John,
Thanks for the info. I've studied the troubleshooting steps in the manual, and am going to make sure the mechanic checks the fuel cut solenoid first before removing the IP.

I found one shop, Seattle Injectors, that has experience with rebuilding these IPs, and they offered a really good price around $350 or so (depending on what exactly failed). Apparently, the reason they can do them so cheap is that they don't do a lot of the machine finishing, so they said quote "it won't look pretty but everything inside will be perfect".

The other place I'm going to try is Oregon Fuel Injection, but they said they have to have the pump ID # before quoting me. However, my pump failed while on SVO, and I've heard they won't warranty work if they find vegetable oil.

Before anyone jumps on veg. oil as the culprit, let me say I'm pretty sure it was a janky Greasecar kit at fault that doesn't heat the oil hot enough. If anyone has more insight into why these pumps fail (I've heard water so far), I'd like to hear it. The other thing I thought of was that I had a clogged diesel fuel filter I had to drive on for a while....if that's the problem I'm just an idiot.

[asavage]

John: The VW tool won't work without removing the starter: the combination of the adapter and the dial indicator is much too long. Here's a mock-up on my bench with the VW tool:




Clay: I didn't know jack about Toyota diesels until I was forced to fix this 1986 for the brother of a friend (the friend I sold the "Bellingham Truck", "Vashon Truck" and "Arlington Trucks" to: I got them all back in exchange for repairing the Toyota). But the IP is a Bosch-licensed VE-style, which I do know about. I can't tell you anything about the power output of your 2L-T, except to say that if the feed pump failed as you think it has, the timing will not advance and power will suffer due to that alone. There could be other factors too of course.

If a shop won't clean the parts on the outside, they won't clean the parts on the inside. Obviously, Seattle Injector does this kind of thing as their main business. I wanted to use them because they're kinda sorta local, but I could not find a single person who would recommend them -- quite the contrary.

WVO is acidic. Leave WVO in the IP and it etches the metal, which is why a proper purge before shutdown is vital -- well, one of the reasons it's vital, anyway. I am not a fan of WVO or SVO -- you've read my reasons before. If you run untransesterified oil as a fuel, you must dot your ayes and cross your tees if you expect the engine -- including the IP -- to last, long-term.

The SD you used to own was very forgiving of alternative "fuels"; the inline IP will put up with a lot, and the agricultural roots of the SD (dating back to 1963!) meant that it was a very sturdy engine, pushrod technology, no OHC, not belts, no chains, all gear drive. If the HP requirements to run the IP double (as might be the case with WVO), the gear drive will take it and the internal drive of the IP will not snap. Contrast this to the Stanadyne DB series IPs (GM 6.xl, Ford/IH 6.9l/7.3l) that regularly snap their shafts when cold-started on WVO, and think about the rubber drive belt for the IP on the Toyota. Also, the VE-style pumps use rubber-like drive bumpers internally, and those have to take the added torque of the more-viscous WVO "fuel".

If I was rebuilding VE-style IPs for a living, I wouldn't warranty one run on WVO/SVO either. You just read why.

The VE-style IP on the LD28 has a belt that drives only the IP: if a cog or two strips, the engine stops, annoying but not expensive. If a cog or two strips on the 2L(-T), kiss the head and pistons goodbye. Makes WVO look expensive, to me. This is in addition to my other reasons (listed at link above).

Your Toyota is a much more refined engine than the SD 720, and drives a lot more like a motor vehicle than a tractor ;) But you may find that it is not as easygoing with your experiments as was the SD in your 720. Sorry to piss on you cornflakes.

[claybodie]

Hey Al,
Thanks for the reply. I didn't mean for this to turn into a discussion about SVO/WVO but I want to make a few comments.

I wouldn't ever shut an engine down on WVO. In this case the injection pump died while driving on WVO. Now, I could easily just blame WVO for causing the mishap, but I don't think that would be accurate since the conversion may be at fault. Greasecar kits have zero instrumentation and shoddy filtration, lending me to believe that the oil was below the 160 degree F 'minimum operating temp' (Enviofuel kits like the one in my Datsun run around 196 degrees F).

You could also blame water in the oil, but according to the previous owner, the truck had an inch of water in the stock diesel tank (maybe that's it too). I never really hear discussions about the quality of regular diesel fuel, which seems like it could be as problematic as poorly processed WVO.

I was wondering if you could cite this: "WVO emits many times the amount of acrolein as petrodiesel, so it's not cleaner by a long stretch." I work in toxicology, and this has been a serious consideration, but I haven't found a good source for this information yet.

Additionally, one of the stories on the link you posted is about all the testing that's been done showing engine failure for diesels running on WVO. Noone ever seems to mentioned that the way they ran these tests was to dump straight vegetable oil into the stock diesel system to see what happened. Most of them ran fine for about 6000 miles and then seized up. I've only seen one study on a 2-tank SVO conversion (from the creator of PlantDrive) where they used compression tests to evaluate wear after 6000 miles and 10 months of driving on a 2-tank system. Beyond that it's up in the air with a whole lot of anecdotal evidence.

Speaking of which, all I have to go on is the anecdotal evidence from someone I found with the same rig. He says he's run SVO for the last 3 years with no engine/IP problems. Now that's definitely not long term, but it's a start.

What I would be more interested in knowing is what exactly will cause these pumps to fail? So far I've heard viscosity and water. What about pumping through a clogged filter? What about temperature? I also read somewhere that the 2LT is IDI and the IP is rotary.

So you've actually been warned against Seattle Injectors? Could you expand on that? My only other option at the moment is Oregon Fuel Injectors...

By the way, if you ever need help clearing up the Biodiesel/WVO/Blend obfuscation, this might help:
http://claytonbodiecornell.greenopti...ing-biodiesel/

-Clayton

[87-2LT]

Originally Posted by claybodie

I never really hear discussions about the quality of regular diesel fuel, which seems like it could be as problematic as poorly processed WVO.
-Clayton

Good point.

http://toyotadiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4178

If there isn't water in regular diesel, I'm sure they add as much as they can get away with. It's money in the bank.

Great discussion gents. Hope it continues...

[asavage]

I really would like to provide the references you request, but at this time I am way overbooked in terms of projects that must be done before 01-Jan. It is possible that I am wrong in something I've posted about WVO and SVO, and I'd really like the acrolein output differences quantified, but I determined to my satisfaction years ago that I am not a potential WVO advocate, and so I try to stay out of it -- I know you have a different take on this, and I respect that. 'Nuf said.

The VE-style IP is relatively fragile, esp. in the area of the lift/feed pump. Maybe a restricted filter encourges its early demise and maybe not. There are enough failing feed pumps in VE-style IPs to be able to say "they break".

The internal drive system in the VE-style IP includes some rubber-like material that will not like the higher torque requirement of more-viscous "fuel". I don't think that can be debated. In a WVO/SVO system, this coupler is material that is not bathed in relatively cool fuel, because you've preheated it to about 100°F higher than it was designed. I think that there are many synthetic materials that will survive just fine at that elevated temperature, but I am not content to say that the material in use by Bosch, Kiki-diesel, Denso, etc. is that material. You, and others who experiment if WVO/SVO will have to determine -- via long-term testing -- if it will hold up. My money is on "not".

(It bears repeating a third time: the Inline IP used in old MBs and the SD has nothing similar to the coupling in the VE, as used on the Toyota, VW, etc.)

While I have not searched for them, I am not aware of a single instance of a WVO/SVO system making 100k miles. I'm sure they exist though, just as I'm certain that they're rare. I will be somewhat surprised if a stock (non-rebuilt with enhanced materials) VE-style IP is in that latter group.

However -- I have personally seen DOZENS of otherwise reasonable cars/trucks in JYs and offered to me to fix or buy, whose engines were destroyed long before their time, due to experiments with alternate "fuels".

I am not trying to change anybody's mind. As you know, I am a big, long-term biodiesel booster and user, with many miles under my wheels on ASTM D-6751 spec biodiesel. I love carbon-neutrality, I love domestic production, I love sulfur-free (no acid rain), I love quadruple lubricity, I can even live with the smell of house paint (raw fuel) and rancid Thai fryer oil (exhaust) of biodiesel.

But I just can't get behind WVO/SVO. I've seen too much iron scrapped due to the "free fuel" movement.

This is all I intend to say (here) on the subject.

I cannot expand on Seattle Injector further in public, and really I've said enough: I could not get a single "we love them", and I got more than one "I'll never recommend them". I used to use Olympic Fuel Injection, but after 30 yrs they lost their lease and decided to pack it up.

I have solicted VE-style IP rebuild pricing in the past and knew what to expect. When I call H&H Diesel, I can talk to the same guy every time, and he returns my calls. So far, other than the light packing job on the return shipping (not enough padding underneath the IP resulting in a minor linkage bend and a perforated overflow hose), I have no reason to think I'll go elsewhere next time. When I called Keith @ H&H and gave him feedback on the packing job, he didn't blow off my advice that his packing person needed to have 3" packing all around: he sounded concerned, which at least is a feel-good thing, worth something.

When I get the IP installed and timed, I'll be able to evaluate H&H's work on this IP in more depth. For now, I'm tentatively recommending them. But lots of places will rebuild an IP. My advice is to ask everyone you know -- that's what I did.

[johnbush]

I might as well chime in on this real quick, but probably we ought to start a new thread regarding some questions which I too am curious about.

My humble opinion and experience.....

I first heard about WVO in college in 1999 while at the University of Vermont. A friend of mine was a buddy of the guy who would eventually go on to start Greasecar and was going on a cross country road trip with him that summer in a converted Vanagon. I thought the idea was clever and novel but didn't know anything about things mechanical at the time, but remember thinking that "neat idea, but you need to modify the vehicle, and after all, how much grease is really out there, is this practical??" things like that.

Shortly afterward at some point I heard about the biodiesel concept - modify the oil, not the vehicle - which was *much* more attractive to me.

After I graduated and needed a new vehicle anyway, I decided to explore things further.... my logic was as follows:

WVO - modify the *vehicle* to fit a *fuel* it was not designed for

or

Biodiesel - modify the *fuel* to suit the needs of the *vehicle*

The second option seemed inherently better to me, especially since I came from a scientific background, not a mechanical one. This is obviously specific to me, not everyone is comfortable with chemical processing as I am, but like I said, it is my opinion and is just the path I chose.

Anyway, I bought my Toyota in '01, and finally figured out enough about making biodiesel to start making my own in '02. I learned a lot about making it and have taught lots of other people how to do it, but these days I don't actually make my own all that much. It is rather difficult to do consistently, I think, unless your life is rather stable and you own a house with a garage or shop to do it in, which I do not - landlords, roommates, etc are often not hip to the idea :)

Anyway, I have run various blends of biodiesel (it gets cold where I live and for roadtrips its not that readily available in the states between Colorado and the West Coast....) for years now and think it is great....I occasionally dabble with the concept of converting my truck to run WVO as well, but it never seems to be worth it to me whenever I really start to think about it. Much of the reasoning outlined by asavage is similar to what I come up with. However, if I had say, an MB 300D I might think differently. Maybe.

I too, however, would really love to see documentation on the acrolein (sp?) issue. I have heard this quoted by many people but have yet to find scientific documention that burning WVO in a *diesel* engine produces the quantities mentioned by WVO naysayers.

Lots of stuff on mechanical troubles, and I have read some reports detailing other emissions problems with WVO, but not specifically acrolein.

John

[claybodie]

So all I'm saying about SVO/WVO is let's get some hard data before we start arguing about it.

I'm also a man of science, and I started out working on biodiesel projections with Oregon State's Biodiesel initiative. In the process I came to realize that making biodiesel just wasn't practical at this point in my life. I was really skeptical about the whole SVO thing, so I did a massive literature search and came up with nothing. No hard data for, no hard data against, except that one master's thesis. I know that a lot of people have blown engines running bad veg. oil systems. I also know people are generally not very smart, e.g. I know mechanics that hate biodiesel after working on gas models whose owners put bio in them. I also know a lot of people who have driven 10s of thousands of miles on SVO rigs with no apparent problems.
So it seems like a crap shoot; all we can do is talk about what we've seen at this point.

Anyway, I digress.

I wanted to ask Al if he was the one the recommended http://dieselhead.net/ to me or if that was someone else. The guy who runs that in Portland, Adam, gave me a recommendation for Seattle Injectors. He said he's had about 10 or so injectors rebuilt by them.

[asavage]

Originally Posted by claybodie

I wanted to ask Al if he was the one the recommended http://dieselhead.net/ to me or if that was someone else.

I have posted a link to Adam's inventory page for someone else recently who was looking for an IP for a 2L -- $650 for a "resealed & recalibrated" IP by Seattle Injector, exchange. I do not have an opinion of Adam's operation.

For contrast, I had a full rebuild of my 2L IP, including a new feed pump (not just the slippers), for $630 including shipping back to me.

The guy who runs that in Portland, Adam, gave me a recommendation for Seattle Injectors. He said he's had about 10 or so injectors rebuilt by them.

Adam's in Portland now? He's been in N. Seattle as long as I've known about him.

Injectors are easy to rebuild: just replace the nozzles, clean the rest and set the pop pressure.

Injection pumps, esp. the VE-style IPs, are not easy to rebuild. A Bacharach calibration/test bench, or equivalent, is required, and it doesn't run itself, you need training to do it properly. There's a lot going on in a VE-style pump -- I know, I've got the Bosch "yellow book" tech manual for it (it's only $25 at Amazon).

[claybodie]

Whoops, you're right. Adam's in Seattle, not Portland.

And I meant he's had about 10 IPs, not injectors, rebuilt.

It's been a long day already ;).

[Aboy]

Originally Posted by claybodie

Is there any crossover between years for the lift pump/injection pump for the Toyota Extra Cabs? I'm wondering if an '84 will work in an '87..

Any other ideas on where to find another lift pump for my 1987 Xtra cab?

I have injection pump / lift pump here... $550